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GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.14 17:50:00 - [1] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Oh, the torps are flying... flying... euh nevermind the mega warped off, taking no damage.... wee how amazing. The 200km torp thing is overrated... Close range mega outdpses raven veeery bad. The tank is similar, but raven has no tackiling gear (at best 3 web drones + 20km scram) leaving the megathorn an escape door if needed. Raven does like what... 600dps? Void mega does like 800+ without drones. moving 4-5 times faster is always good(bad/no instas, whatever) Forcing the mega to warp off = raven wins And close range, the bthron has to deal with stuff like tracking and falloff which both affect the amount of dps you can put out pretty considerably, apart from the fact the raven can fire from warpin whereas the mega probably has to MWD a few cycles into range... And last but not least, the raven can definitely tank harder than the mega with standard gear. Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.14 18:12:00 - [2] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld It would be? ceptor sig = ~20-25ish cruiser sg = ~135 t2 torps get a very big dmg reduction that they can't avoid in any way(target painters = medslot), compare that to what a dominix, spile l mega, null mega does to a cruiser. t2 torps do little dmg to ceptors, nothing worthy of mention... same as L weapons. Battleship guns will not hit a cruiser if it's moving at all, or webbed, in which case you have to be within 10k. Jav torps can 3-volley a plated thorax. But anyway, I still dont understand why you just brought up cruisers when this was a discussion about jav torps (BS weaps) Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.14 19:54:00 - [3] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Battleship guns wont hit a cruiser? ORLY? You've never seen a tempest instapop cruisers from 150km or so methinks. Sorry, I missed a couple of words "at close range" (ie. under 50k or so). Even at 200km with 425mm Rail II's I sometimes have problems hitting moving cruisers, guess it just depends on the luck of the draw which way they head. Frigs are another matter entirely. Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.14 20:35:00 - [4] Edited by: GO MaZ on 14/09/2006 20:35:48 Originally by: X Rated OMG, if you can't hit a frig or even a cruiser at 200km then you don't need to be in a mega. FFS. Learn how to set up your spots so they aren't moving perpendicular to you. I have probably 1/2 the skills of you and can do it easy. And if you FOR ANY REASON think that a BC or a Cruiser should not be wtfpwned in 3 volleys by a BS then you are retarded sir. Not always that easy, while I know my skills are way off what I'd like them to be, there's no way you can get a sniper point spot on every time - say someone jumps thru a gate you're camping. How do you know where they'll uncloak? The location they uncloak determines their transversal if they head back to the gate or say, try to run out of a bubble. Likewise on warp-in, how do you know which direction they're gonna warp in from. There's only so much you can do picking good sniper spots, but a lot of it is luck of the draw. Come to think of it I think the only cruiser I've had problems hitting from 200k was vagabonds / stabbers, but frigs / dictors on the other hand its pretty hit and miss depending on their path back to / away from a gate (purely thinking about camping situations here). Sure, sniper BS's can pop small ships at range but it's not clearcut OWNAGE, most of the time they pop because when you do get a hit, it takes half their armor off in one shot Ravens aren't as effective at long range if you cant hold the target down, but I think what nybbas was trying to say is the fact t2 jav torps are exactly the same as t1's but faster. I always thought cruise were sposed to be the long-range bs weapon and torps for short range, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.14 21:20:00 - [5] Originally by: LordZer00 No, it just means the Mega warps back in a minute later, or waits for friends... Making an enemy ship warp away does not equal winning. That's like saying that making an enemy soldier retreat is as strategically benificial as killing him. Its not, thats still another pair of hands with a weapon in your immediate vicinity. Even with a close warp out point, you're still keeping the mega out of the battle for 45 - 60 seconds, at which point you'll be taking no damage at all. This sudden discussion between a sniper and a javraven is actually pretty moot since it'll be an absolute stalemate. Anyway, I think nybbas' point is less about the delay on damage dealt, but the fact that the raven's supposed "short range" weapon, even t2, can hit out to the max lock range - wtb large blaster ammo that can do that Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.14 21:45:00 - [6] Edited by: GO MaZ on 14/09/2006 21:52:54 Edited by: GO MaZ on 14/09/2006 21:47:52 I think this illustrates nybbas point more effectively "Short Range" BS Now remember, torps are sposed to be CLOSE RANGE weapons. (Pls dont shoot me for the tempest, I have no idea about typical AC-pest setups so just shoved one together in quickfit to see how it compared). I honestly think the graph speaks for itself. edit: yes I know that rage torps are generally **** against bs, that graph includes triple painters and it's just a basic comparison - the only things you need on there are typical "close-range" bs setups to see whats wrong edit2: cleaned up the graph a little Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.14 23:04:00 - [7] Some more "useful" graphs along with the one I already posted - the ravenmega_ ones compare a siege raven with javs and without javs and a 425 t2 mega with thorium and spike (same damage) against different targets with some possible values for speed & transversal. All are mwd off btw so no uber sig radius Javelin Comparisons Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.15 22:30:00 - [8] Edited by: GO MaZ on 15/09/2006 22:34:32 I dont see what's so hard to understand. Even without looking at any real combat situation, just looking at the NUMBERS it's blatently obvious how broken they are. Torps were initially designed as a short range, high damage weapon to make up for cruise' lack of damage at short range. By introducing javelin torps, cruise missiles are now TOTALLY defunct because Jav torps are the same speed, have the same explosion radius, do more damage and have a longer flight time. How anyone can justify that as balance is clearly bat**** insane Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 03:12:00 - [9] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld 1. MISSLE FLIGHT TIME MISSLE FLIGHT TIME MISSLE FLIGHT TIME DELAYED DMG DELAYED DMG To be quite frank missile flight time is a moot goddamn point. No short range weapon should be OUTRANGING ALL SNIPER SETUP BATTLESHIPS, Not least having the ability to hit at 316KM were lock limits removed. The SIMPLE FACT that a SHORT RANGE WEAPON outdamages, outranges, and outruns a long-range equivalent is utter bull**. The SIMPLE FACT that the Javelin Torpedo has a 250% range bonus over its T1 counterpart is utter bull** (Spike / Aurora = 100%). Coupled with the advantage of already being able to select your damage type, the ability to hit moving battleships down to cruisers just as, if not more effectively than a sniping battleship, and the ability to be just as effective at 2KM as at 250KM, I have to ask myself how it's not possible to see this. Just because you use them, doesn't mean they dont need a nerf. I use ECM, I sure as hell know that needs a nerf Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 08:32:00 - [10] Originally by: Kelgen Thann OK. Javs range means nothing. If a target is willing to sit still as javs fly 150 km and they don't see the nasty little trail of doom comming at them they are stupid for sitting there taking volley after volley... In long range fleet battles, or anything at long range missles are USLESS. If you have any ability as a pilot or suffering even small breaks in lag you warp out. If you don't you deserve the same death as the guy in Austin powers and the steamroller!!! If the problem is with pilot stupidity, why don't blasters, autocannons and Pulse lasers hit at 250km? Oh yeah now I remember, because they're short range weapons At the current point in time caldari have two long range weapons (not including turrets here) and one of them is also exceedingly effective at close range. No other race gets that. No other race gets such a large increase in range without penalising its hitting ability (in this case, the ammo has no explosion radius / speed nerf). I'm gonna try and stop responding in this thread cos I'm starting to get like nybbas (I wonder why), but I leave you with one thing - Bull****s Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 09:35:00 - [11] So why is everyone so against capping javelins to 100km range then They're SO INNEFECTIVE above 100km but everyone still flies them. What is the point of using cruise when you can use jav torps? Pretty much none if you want to hit long range. DISCOUNT the fact that the numbers pretty much show it all, the fact that a single t2 ammo totally nullifies another weapon type (cruise) by being better in just about every single way is just stupid. As for the item description... slow and dumb? 8400m/s isnt slow (omfg, cruise missile speed anyone? ) Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 10:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Well for the difference between cruise missiles and torps, first off cruise missiles have the guided missile precision skill which makes the explosion radius alot lower. The torps have no aid from this skill Sure, they dont have the skill, but their explosion radius and their speed are enough to take anything down to cruisers very effectively, mwd or not. They're not very good on frigates but I should hope not, neither are blasters, rails, tachyons or autocannons. Originally by: Lucian Corvinus cruise launchers are alot easier to fit than siege launchers. You end up with alot more possibilities to fit your ship Even with siege fitted, you can fit a xl 5cl, em, kin, therm 55% and an invul field + heavy injector. Not a bad tank at all, especially considering any other ship trying to hit 250km will have at most a 1-slot tank (med rep) - the only other ship that can effectively hit to 250km is the mega, with hardwirings and even then it's into falloff by a good distance. Originally by: Lucian Corvinus cruise launchers can fit fof cruise missiles, (eventhough they suck and always go after the drones) I'll give you this, you do sorta leave yourself open to ecm, but no other race has this ability with their primary weapon system, everyone else relies on drones if they become jammed (lol, sorry amarrians). I know the raven can fit 3 heavies... not exactly amazing but it's there nonetheless. Originally by: Lucian Corvinus and slowing down to 30 m/s in a raven really makes a difference What? Yeah you cant get out of bubbles and such very easily, but you aren't penalised at all at being able to hit things. Turrets get -% tracking, which affects how you hit, but -% speed on a ship that has no tracking really makes little difference. Apart from the fact you can use javelin torps to enter warp faster than usual Oh also, you can be fully aligned and up to speed continually and you dont have to ever worry about range if you're under 250km. You can exit instantly whenever you feel like it. Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:06:00 - [13] Originally by: welsh wizard How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km? Er, cruise missiles Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Zanarkand Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: welsh wizard How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km? Er, cruise missiles make cruise missles have a base speed 50km/s and we would be fine Cruise speed is fine considering the range they do. Everyone knows missile ships aren't much use at range unless you're using BE-style tactics to keep your target sticking around - thats their disandvantage. Their advantage is being able to hit every time when in range, massive burst damage and being able to fit a rather impressive tank and still being effective from 0 - 250km (provided you can keep your target around). If you really have a problem with missiles being crap in fleets because they dont fly a billion m/s, buy a scorp and fit rails. **** damage, but instant damage. It's a given that missiles dont have instant damage, and somehow that makes it ok to give +250% range bonuses and +Damage over its T1 counterpart. Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 12:13:00 - [15] Originally by: welsh wizard Well snod this is another endlessly argued point. I'd say that you only ever become truly good in a Raven once you have a hell of a lot of skillpoints in Engineering, Missiles, Caldari BS V and atleast tech II medium/light drone capability (vital to a torp pilot becuase fitting heavy nos isn't really possible). As you said, endlessly argued. Every battleship needs a ****load of SP to be effective - mega and geddon need t2 guns + drones and armor mods, pest needs the same + shield skills depending on the way you fly it. Caldari weapon systems dont even have the requirement of training the smaller spec skill to lvl4 Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 13:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Barbicane Originally by: GO MaZ As for the item description... slow and dumb? 8400m/s isnt slow (omfg, cruise missile speed anyone? ) What I intended to show with those descriptions was that there is no CCP design decision saying torps are intended to be used at short range - which is what you were arguing for earlier. Then you turned around started blaming the raven instead... The T1 ver has less range, is slower and does more damage than cruise missiles. That pretty much fits it into a close range role and that makes sense considering the damage of cruise at close range compared to blasters, pulses or ac's is low. I just dont see why ccp would implement 2 long-range weapons for battleship class ships. We have rockets and standards for frigate sizes, Assaults and Heavies for cruiser and bs (when assault missiles get released that is) and that naturally leads on to torps and cruise, one for short range, high damage and one for long range, lower damage. Every other BS gets a short range and a long range turret, whereas ravens / scorps get two long range solutions depending on what tank you feel like fitting. Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 19:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Train the bare minimum skills to use t2 seige launchers, and nothing else. Then lemme know. I'll fight you my raven vs yours, and we'll see how good you are with your 14second rof. I mentioned nothing of support skills. Turrets have those too, y'know. What I was talking about was the fact you don't have to train t2 heavies or lights to train for t2 javs, which means training for them is a helluvalot faster Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 22:33:00 - [18] Originally by: dec0 To the original poster - you are an idiot. You have not listened to a thing anybody has said to you. Ive been reading through your posts and some of the things you have said, e.g. "long range fleet battles are only a very very few of the fleet battles" umm about 90% of fleet battles are over 150km idiot. Javelin torps are good, yes, and they have a right to be. But they arent better than any other type of ammo, you obviously have never used them. They arent unbalanced, neither are ravens. Shield tanking isnt better than armour tanking, its about the same, plus we cant web, scramble, target paint etc without screwing our tanks. Another thing you said (cant remember exactly, need to use quotes but cba :D) is that javelin torp ravens do more dps than megas? wtf!! Raven with a decent tank and 6 t2 torps leaves no room for nos, or webby, so you in your blaster mega just needs to mwd within 10k and its ******, nothing beats a blaster mega and close range nub. Also, sniping with javelins? You ever heard of anything called alpha strike? The pilot can go on holiday for a week and when he gets back he will still have time to warp his ship away before the first volley even hits. Seriously man you dont have a CLUE what you are talking about so stfu and go back to corp hopping hmm k? Had to get that off my chest, feel better now. Lmao, poster obviously didn't read the thread as suggested since he missed the post where OP admitted to flying a Jav Raven for the last couple months When talking about tank, I believe we were comparing a long range mega, which can fit ZERO tank, to a jav raven, which can fit a relatively effective tank while still hitting max lock range Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.17 17:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Doxs Roxs Nybbas probably got owned by a raven that fired javelin torps from long range at him and now he is whining on the forums... Do you know who Nybbas is? Nybbas does not die Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.19 17:51:00 - [20] Originally by: John Blackthorn Both t2 ammo's have shorter range, precition does less damage than normal torps, fury does less damage than normal torps when hiting anything but pos and capital ships. And the t2 torp penalties are just nuts. Fury is indeed "worse" than t1 torps when you're hitting anything other than POS and painted BS / dreads, but as for javelins I have a feeling you're looking at precision cruise, not javelin torps as this thread is about. Jav torps do the same damage with longer range and higher speed, decreased explosion radius and increased explosion velocity for a pretty meaningless penalty. Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.

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